The CEO of an all-woman social media app has come under fire after reportedly refusing to address a transgender woman as “Ms”.

Australian businesswoman Sall Grover is being sued for unlawfully discriminating against a transgender woman who was seeking membership into Grover’s female-only networking app, Giggle.

The plaintiff, Roxanne Tickle, had tried to sign up to Giggle in 2021 but was supposedly denied membership by the company. She has filed suit against Grover and Giggle at a Sydney federal court to seek damages.

Grover appeared before federal court justice Robert Bromwich on the second day of the trial to present evidence in her defence.

Tickle vs Grover and Giggle

Georgina Costello KC, legal counsel representing Tickle, accused Grover and her team of persistently misgendering the plaintiff for years. She even revealed that Grover had once interacted directly with Tickle on X, telling the plaintiff that, “If I was to meet you IRL, I’d treat you how you want to be treated”.

When Costello asked Grover if she would refer to Tickle as “Ms” in real life, the Giggle CEO said, “No”.

And when Tickle’s lawyer followed it up by asking whether her response was kind, Grover said, “I don’t think that it’s kind to expect a woman to see a man as a woman.”

As part of the hearing, the court was told that the legal costs for Giggle’s defence is being covered through proceeds from an Etsy shop that is selling Team Giggle merchandise. One of the products being offered was a scented candle, which featured a “demeaning” image of Tickle.

Grover was asked in court whether she believed that the Etsy product was offensive to the plaintiff, she replied by claiming that “offence is very subjective”.

In her argument, Costello described the features of a transgender woman, including having a female birth certificate, hormone therapy, breasts, and gender affirmation surgery. She also wears makeup and women’s clothes, has a woman’s hairstyle and uses women’s facilities.

However, when Tickle’s lawyer asserted that these features are what makes a woman in society, Grover shot down the idea.

“I don’t agree,” the Giggle CEO said.

Defining a woman

Tickle’s lawsuit against Giggle is the first of its kind in Australia, effectively testing the country’s gender identity discrimination laws in a federal court. It is considered unlawful under federal law to discriminate against any person because of their sexual orientation, gender identity, or intersex status, according to focusesversion of the Sex Discrimination Act.

This landmark case focusses on how the law defines sex, gender, and what it means to be a woman in Australia.

For Tickle’s legal team, Giggle discriminated against the plaintiff because of her sex rather than her gender identity. They argue that the social media app can be considered a “special measure” that can help promote equality between men and women.

However, Grover and Giggle’s lawyers are adamant that sex remains a biological concept.

“Sex is discriminatory, it always has been and always will be … biological sex must prevail,” Bridie Nolan, lawyer for Grover and Giggle, said.

Nolan referenced the legislative move to add the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women into the Sex Discrimination Act.

A female-focused social media app

During the trial, Giggle’s lawyers recounted how Gover came up with the idea for the app after developing trauma from social media use while living in the United States.

“It would be a place without harassment, mansplaining, dick pics, stalking, aggression … the vision was to create an online refuge,” Nolan said.

To be a Giggle member, users would have to upload a selfie, which would then be verified as female by the app’s gender detection software KairosAI. Giggle’s team argued that it was meant to be an unobtrusive way to check the gender of would-be members.

When Tickle allegedly signed up to Giggle back in February 2021, the app identified her as female. However, her application was later revoked.